Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 25, 2017, 08:30 pm

Updated Topics | Recent Unread Topics
Home Help Search Login Register

+  Dragon Mountain
|-+  Forum
| |-+  Sanctum Sanctorum
| | |-+  using gender/orientation/other group specific insults
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print
Author Topic: using gender/orientation/other group specific insults  (Read 28084 times)
Kybard
society's stared-at man
Mod


HOW ARE YOU


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2010, 06:47 pm »

I can't see a reason why giving alternate meaning to a word and using it in a friendly environment would be a bad thing.

it's intellectually dishonest to claim that you've "given an alternate meaning to a word" when you use it like that. if that were true, you could just as easily (and without any chance of offense) start calling your friends "potatoes" as an insult. but you don't, because the word "fag" already has a negative and insulting connotation, which you are appropriating for your "friendly" context. you are absolutely not changing the meaning of the word.

it is beside the point whether or not there would be "cause for offense" among your friends.  you're using a socially charged word in a context which emphasizes its power to demean. "fag" doesn't get to stop being a reference to gay people any more than "n***er" gets to be used without reference to its social ramifications.

or, for another analogy, do you or would you ever feel comfortable using words like "spic" or "kike" among your friends, given some agreement that you had "changed the meaning" and the words are just friendly insults?
Logged

but it's not so great when you consider that it's coming from an alive lady
VoodooTissue
Butt Expert
Buddy Friend Pal


KNIFE PARTY JORTS REMIX


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2010, 07:33 pm »

If those words were part of my regularly used vocabulary, I suppose I would - but I've never heard of the word kike and the last time somebody said spic around me was when I was 6.

I have, in all seriousness, called my friends buckets and carrots and a whole assortment of words to insult them in an in-joke kind of way. It's of no concern to me or anyone in the group whether people outside of it think it's stupid or ridiculous, the fact of the matter is that in the context we use it, it takes on a different meaning. The words Faggot and Fag (I'll be sticking with these words as my examples because these are the words for which I'm "guilty" of using) were around in their capacity as non-insulting words well before it was adopted as a means of defining someone in a derogatory manner as a homosexual.

The entire meaning of the word changes dramatically in context and that's just the nature of language - it's why you can call your mate gay for knowing what fuschia is and then, in another breath, call another guy gay for cheating on a test. The first instance (in my usage) implies something feminine and not derogatory while the second is most certainly used in an insulting manner.

There are multiple instances of words being turned into something insulting or as a means of praise while retaining little if any of their previous meanings - calling someone a cool cat or saying someone is "fully sick". I see no reason why you could not further change the meaning of a word simply because in other circumstances it may have an implicit negative connotation. The whole basis of language is attaching arbitrary sounds to abstract concepts and knowing that the person on the receiving end understands which concept you are referring to.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 08:30 pm by Kybard » Logged

Honest Abe
Chairman, Pug Club Local 80085
Hyperbolic Paraboloid


join pug club! ask me how!


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2010, 08:29 pm »

Yes, Abe, you're right - you don't, under any circumstances, have to use those words. But if you do and it's in a friendly manner, I don't see any reason why there would be cause for offense.

oh well in that case
Logged
Bettytron
Fart Wizard



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2010, 10:50 pm »

The words Faggot and Fag (I'll be sticking with these words as my examples because these are the words for which I'm "guilty" of using) were around in their capacity as non-insulting words well before it was adopted as a means of defining someone in a derogatory manner as a homosexual.

But you're not using it in any of those meanings, which have pretty much fallen into antiquity unless you're British, and even with British people it is pretty clear whether they're gaybashing or jonesing for a cigarette.

The entire meaning of the word changes dramatically in context and that's just the nature of language - it's why you can call your mate gay for knowing what fuschia is and then, in another breath, call another guy gay for cheating on a test. The first instance (in my usage) implies something feminine and not derogatory while the second is most certainly used in an insulting manner.

Actually even if you're just joking around in that first instance it is derogatory, because you're implying (and actually openly just saying in your explanation) that being gay is equivalent to being feminine.  And, subsequently, that being feminine is negative or undesirable, something worthy of ridicule.  That's the product of years of socialization that you're reinforcing by using the word in that context.  I'm not even sure about your second example, it just seems like lazy word choice. 

No one's policing your vocabulary but it IS important to understand the social histories of words and how they affect the way you see the world and how your use of these words affects the way people see you.  Whether you choose to be responsible with that knowledge is your loss or gain, but to deny words their power is to be ignorant and to isolate yourself.
Logged

VoodooTissue
Butt Expert
Buddy Friend Pal


KNIFE PARTY JORTS REMIX


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2010, 11:52 pm »

I don't think we'll gain anything by continuing the arguement because we're all clearly defined on our stances and none of us seem willing to change, which is fine. I'd just like to point out that the first instance of gay isn't at all insulting - being feminine isn't a bad thing, it just implies a certain point of view that is different from the expected masculinity. Also, with my group of friends, it is always clear how we're using instances of the words that might cause offense to other people - I don't see how being British or Turkish or anything would de-value that aspect of the conversation.

Logged

Kybard
society's stared-at man
Mod


HOW ARE YOU


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2010, 12:16 am »

I'd just like to point out that the first instance of gay isn't at all insulting - being feminine isn't a bad thing, it just implies a certain point of view that is different from the expected masculinity.

so when you say that to your friend, you say it with a straight face as a reported fact? "that is certainly a gay thing you have done by identifying that color." and all your friends nod their heads in solemn agreement?

also your example explicitly contradicts your contention that the use of the word amidst your group involves some process by which you change what the meaning of the word is
Logged

but it's not so great when you consider that it's coming from an alive lady
VoodooTissue
Butt Expert
Buddy Friend Pal


KNIFE PARTY JORTS REMIX


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2010, 01:41 am »


so when you say that to your friend, you say it with a straight face as a reported fact? "that is certainly a gay thing you have done by identifying that color." and all your friends nod their heads in solemn agreement?


Yes?
also your example explicitly contradicts your contention that the use of the word amidst your group involves some process by which you change what the meaning of the word is

The word was used in two different instances, both having different meanings. It was to show that the word could be used to describe two entirely different things, not to show what exact meaning I attach to the word when I'm with friends.
Logged

HyperGlavin
bridge and tunnel dyke
Probably a postbot


I'm a cool guy irl


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2010, 01:59 am »

Okay it's pretty clear that VoodooTissue is an ignorant little turd who has no idea what he's talking about and has no desire to discuss this further unless it justifies his behaviour.

I don't think we'll gain anything by continuing the arguement because we're all clearly defined on our stances and none of us seem willing to change, which is fine.

Then do us all a favour and shut the fuck up.
Logged

Yes, come on, get a dog up you, you rapscallion.
VoodooTissue
Butt Expert
Buddy Friend Pal


KNIFE PARTY JORTS REMIX


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2010, 02:26 am »

Jesus, Glavin, I've never met someone more intent on being an asshole in my entire life.
Logged

HyperGlavin
bridge and tunnel dyke
Probably a postbot


I'm a cool guy irl


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2010, 04:36 am »

I take full responsibility for my asshole-ish behaviour and should I cross the line (which I may have done here), I accept that what I've done was a bad thing. I'm certainly not going to pretend that it never happened or that my intent was to not be an asshole and that you simply misinterpreted my words.
Logged

Yes, come on, get a dog up you, you rapscallion.
Honest Abe
Chairman, Pug Club Local 80085
Hyperbolic Paraboloid


join pug club! ask me how!


View Profile
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2010, 09:54 am »

what it comes down to me is this: why do you feel the need to defend your use of shitty language? you know that these words are used to denigrate an entire group, but you feel you can justify using them "for fun". why? why do you feel the need to try to justify using this language that you know is crap? i'm fine with "yes i use shitty language and i will continue to use it i don't care what you think." but couching that with justifications of context and privacy are pretty disingenuous given your knowledge of the words. what do you lose from your life by giving up using these words?
Logged
Bettytron
Fart Wizard



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2010, 10:01 am »


so when you say that to your friend, you say it with a straight face as a reported fact? "that is certainly a gay thing you have done by identifying that color." and all your friends nod their heads in solemn agreement?


Yes?

Ahahahah I love imagining this conversation.  Like by remembering the names from his 64 pack of Crayolas as a kid all of his friends suddenly, earnestly believe that this young man is sexually interested in other men.
Logged

RummyLu
The PUNisher
Probably a postbot



View Profile
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2010, 12:03 pm »

This thread is getting pretty gay.
Logged

"Iíll retract the rape complaint from the wombat, because heís pulled out."
spermus
Still Owes Me Five Bucks



View Profile
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2010, 12:17 pm »

Mod me so I can delete that motherfucker.
Logged

That was not the bear I was expecting in a gay blowjob.
Honest Abe
Chairman, Pug Club Local 80085
Hyperbolic Paraboloid


join pug club! ask me how!


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2010, 12:20 pm »

thanks for contributing
Logged
RummyLu
The PUNisher
Probably a postbot



View Profile
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2010, 12:37 pm »

I just meant that I had gotten the impression that VT had got your points, but that now it was just turning in to some sort of stacks on. Sorry, I didn't mean to be such a facetious dick about it.
Logged

"Iíll retract the rape complaint from the wombat, because heís pulled out."
Honest Abe
Chairman, Pug Club Local 80085
Hyperbolic Paraboloid


join pug club! ask me how!


View Profile
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2010, 12:41 pm »

well that was more directed at spermus who hasn't ever had an interesting thing to say on anything ever
Logged
RummyLu
The PUNisher
Probably a postbot



View Profile
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2010, 12:45 pm »

Ah ok, I still shouldn't have been so flippant though. Got to say, this thread has been a really interesting read, I'd never considered how bitch could be so offensive to other women, but it seems really obvious now.

Oh words, why do you have to be so powerful.
Logged

"Iíll retract the rape complaint from the wombat, because heís pulled out."
Mile Star
Sucks at High Fiving


Like Jason Bourne, only retarded


View Profile
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2010, 01:45 pm »

Hey remember that transit bus fight with the bearded man and the black guy? Remember how it started? The bearded was talking about shoe polishing and threw the word "nigger" or some other discriminating word for black people that he didn't want to use in an offensive manner (or did he?) and you saw what happened.

The guy was talking with his friend, and the black man in the bus overheard it because, you know, words are sounds that even other people can hear. That is a perfect example of the effect of using words in a "non-offensive" manner which is supposed to be "good hearted".

What I'm saying is that using words people identify themselves with will never be appropriate when used in an offensive context.
Logged
Bettytron
Fart Wizard



View Profile
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2010, 01:54 pm »

Psychology Today just did an interesting article on "microaggressions", the "everyday verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs, or insults, whether intentional or unintentional, which communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative messages to target persons based solely upon their marginalized group membership". It seems to fit right in with this conversation and the implied messages in the words we use, whether we mean them or not.  The author also discusses how we internalize the ideas perpetuated by this language, and how this is reflected in the power structure. 

Also among their examples:
Quote
A lesbian client in therapy reluctantly discloses her sexual orientation to a straight therapist by stating she is "into women." The therapist indicates he is not shocked by the disclosure because he once had a client who was "into dogs." (Hidden message: Same-sex attraction is abnormal and deviant.)
Oh my GOD get a new therapist!!!!
Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 Print 
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!