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Author Topic: Rape Culture  (Read 45222 times)
HappyDays
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2013, 05:47 pm »

Quote
or, if you prefer this format, Twelve Reasons Why Rape Is Not Sexually Motivated: A Skeptical Examination by Craig T. Palmer, in The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 25, No. 4

Sorry to nitpick, but I looked up this article, and it seems to completely disagree with you. It's arguing that rape is mostly about sex, not power.
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HappyDays
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2013, 05:50 pm »

As a matter of fact, that article (which can be found here) provides a lot of other sources, some which say that rape is about power, and some which say that it is mostly about sex. So now I'm more confused than ever. If there are studies coming to both conclusions, how are we supposed to come to any kind of consensus?
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Metsfan
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2013, 05:52 pm »

Metsfan, that's not at all a complete picture. (Bettytron's excellent post)

I realize that, I was trying to be as simple as possible but I don't have the writing prowess to do so without being somewhat offensive. But I definitely understand what you're saying.
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Karlski
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 05:53 pm »

what exactly are you hoping for, happydays?
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 05:55 pm »

I'll have to confess that I cribbed that one off a citations list without looking it up, sorry for that. Anyway, welcome to the scientific process!
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HappyDays
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2013, 05:56 pm »

what exactly are you hoping for, happydays?

I don't know, at this point I'm honestly wondering what the point is of the "rape is about power" doctrine. There's obviously some reason it's consistently used by feminists, but I have yet to discern what that reason is, and why people are so defensive of that doctrine. Why does it matter if rape is actually mostly about sex? What branch or subsection of feminism does that hurt? Rapists are bad people regardless of their reasons. We don't need to change their motivation to make that true.

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fermun
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2013, 05:57 pm »

If we lived in a culture where a significant portion of the population thought rape was acceptable under some of these conditions:


Would you consider it justified in calling our culture a rape culture? A culture where rape is very accepted?

This is from a 1979 study of American high school students. Rape culture is a term used to show that rape is normalized, accepted, inevitable. When you treat rape in this manner, you have passed all blame for the act of violence onto the victim. This is a problem because of how rape happens. Rape mostly doesn't occur by strangers raping someone, rape usually happens when a husband, a boyfriend, a friend, a neighbor, or a family member chooses to.

To me, it implies a society where rape is okay, where it's not that big a deal, and where it happens more than ever. Well, I don't think society finds rape to be okay. It carries very serious punishments.
3% of rapists are punished for it.


http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates


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HappyDays
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2013, 05:59 pm »

Come on, we don't define our society based on what high schoolers think. High schoolers are idiots, every single one of them. If you have a study that shows a similar trend in normal adults, I'll start coming around to what you say. That study was also done in 1979. I never said that rape culture never existed, just that it doesn't exist today. Attitudes about women have changed dramatically over the last few decades. Domestic abuse and sexual violence against women is also lower than ever.

EDIT: I understand that rapists get away. All I said was that the punishment for rape is harsh. Rapists getting away is not a product of rape culture, it's a byproduct of our "innocent until proven guilty" justice system. Rape is unfortunately very difficult to prove. That doesn't mean that people won't believe a woman who says she gets raped, but it's hard to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.
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Karlski
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2013, 06:01 pm »

I don't know, at this point I'm honestly wondering what the point is of the "rape is about power" doctrine. There's obviously some reason it's consistently used by feminists, but I have yet to discern what that reason is, and why people are so defensive of that doctrine. Why does it matter if rape is actually mostly about sex? What branch or subsection of feminism does that hurt? Rapists are bad people regardless of their reasons. We don't need to change their motivation to make that true.


Well after about thirty seconds of consideration, here's what I have: the methods you use to stop someone from doing something will be altered dependent on the reasons they have for doing such a thing. Figure the rest out for yourself.

[edit: removed my bit telling him off for only addressing half of fermun's post because he edited his post to correct that oversight]
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DiegoInglewood
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2013, 06:01 pm »

Why does it matter if rape is actually mostly about sex?

because saying that is untrue & also trivializes the subject

edit:

I never said that rape culture never existed, just that it doesn't exist today.

you're fucking dumb
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Zach
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2013, 06:04 pm »

Happydays, you really are one festering, putrid, disingenuous sack of shit.
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HappyDays
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2013, 06:06 pm »

Well after about thirty seconds of consideration, here's what I have: the methods you use to stop someone from doing something will be altered dependent on the reasons they have for doing such a thing. Figure the rest out for yourself.

Is this true? I don't think preventing rape would change much whether the perpetrators were mostly doing it for sex, or for power. Why would it? In either case, we should be teaching men at a young age that girls are not just sex objects to be used for their benefit. How do our methods change at all?

Why does it matter if rape is actually mostly about sex?

because saying that is untrue & also trivializes the subject

It's hard to take you seriously when you say "because saying that is untrue" even though we just went over an article in which no scientific consensus is found. I really don't see how it trivializes the subject. Like I said above, rapists are bad no matter what their motivation.
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2013, 06:08 pm »


I realize that, I was trying to be as simple as possible but I don't have the writing prowess to do so without being somewhat offensive. But I definitely understand what you're saying.

Try equating denial of rape culture to denying the holocaust!
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Karlski
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2013, 06:10 pm »

you know what this reminds me of? it's exactly the same as some of the arguments you see about climate change

'oh but there's no CONSENSUS there has to be CONSENSUS otherwise what's the point'

[edit to finish that train of thought because I got distracted partway]:
and then the 'discussion' proceeds to be completely derailed as the 'skeptic' drags everyone off into nitpicking discussions of every little point they make so that they can avoid the big, glaring issue that they're a fucking moron

HappyDays, I'm not going to explain my point about different prevention methods for different causes because it is blindingly fucking obvious. If you can't figure out the intermediate steps for yourself then you're either a) too fucking dumb to make this conversation worth having or b) a fucking liar
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HappyDays
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2013, 06:11 pm »

I don't know what you think rape is about if power isn't involved. It's clearly not only about sexual gratification, because most manage to deal with those impulses without violently violating another person. Your robbery analogy is actually perfect but for reasons that you don't understand. A rapist isn't just taking sex/money, but he's turning a woman into an inanimate object from which to take it. The wallet has no say, but the woman ought to. You can see that, right? It's the turning-a-woman-into-an-object from which the rapist can take what he wants, that's the power play.

I don't understand. Because most people are able to deal with their sexual urges, that means rapists are too? And their rapes are about power because of this? That doesn't seem to follow. My interpretation of this is that rapists are just shitty people who don't feel like holding in their sexual impulses because they are shitty people. Why does it have to be more complicated? I understand that rape involves power, it obviously has to. I just don't think that the motivation is power. The motivation seems to be sex. I'm sure that some rapists get off on the power of it, but I think the average date-rapist is doing it because he likes sex and cares more about pleasuring himself than he does about the woman. In either case, he is objectifying and hurting the woman, that's why I don't see why this "rape is power" thing even becomes a huge issue. It doesn't seem to change the discussion whatsoever.
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Karlski
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2013, 06:13 pm »

point proved
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HappyDays
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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2013, 06:14 pm »

you know what this reminds me of? it's exactly the same as some of the arguments you see about climate change

'oh but there's no CONSENSUS there has to be CONSENSUS otherwise what's the point'



But there is a consensus on climate change. 99% of climate scientists agree. There doesn't appear to be any such consensus on "rape is power," and in fact, the article I'm looking at seems to show that there is no consensus whatsoever.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm totally baffled as to why this issue gets people so riled up. I mean obviously any discussion on rape is going to get people riled up, but I'm not sitting here saying women are to blame, or male rape is a bigger problem, or something dumb like that. I'm showing some evidence that maybe rape is actually just about sex like it seems to be intuitively, and that alone is getting people super pissed. I have no idea why this is the case.
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Karlski
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2013, 06:16 pm »

yes that is definitely what it is about your posts that is pissing people off, it's not the dishonesty or nitpicking or refusal to apply critical thinking skills
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HappyDays
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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2013, 06:18 pm »

Where have I been dishonest, and where have I been nitpicking? Am I reading this whole discussion wrong? The point that you all believe appears to be (and correct me if I'm wrong): "Rapists are motivated mostly by power, not sex." I disagree. I'm not nitpicking, I just fundamentally disagree with that statement. I think that rapists are motivated mostly by sex. Does rape involve power? Of course it does, the rapist has to take power over his victim. This doesn't mean that the motivation is power, anymore than a robber using power to take money means that the the power is more of a motivation than the money.
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Karlski
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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2013, 06:20 pm »

prisons

that thing in india recently

the steubenville guys, they didn't even get off, it was all about the power and abuse

nanjing

the joy divisions

i'll wait here, you go find some shitbirdy little nitpick in each of those
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