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Author Topic: Let's talk about Joe Paterno.  (Read 27378 times)
HyperGlavin
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« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2012, 03:05 pm »

Some people are not only able to make those judgements, but it's actually their job to do so. Those people have passed judgement on PSU and given their verdict within the system of the law, based on all the evidence, testimony and records that exist. How is this not fair?
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« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2012, 03:16 pm »

Wait, what?  The NCAA is a non-profit regulatory body for collegiate athletics.  It has nothing to do with the system of the law.  Further, one major aspect to the whole newsworthiness of this particular sanction is that the NCAA has acted in an "unprecedented" manner by NOT providing Penn State with the traditional due process it grants.  That is, withoutthall the benefits of evidence, testimony and records that exist.
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HyperGlavin
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« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2012, 03:28 pm »

I'm not sure you understand what a regulatory body actually is or does, because that doesn't really disprove my point.
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« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2012, 03:35 pm »

I'm not sure you understand what evidence, testimony and records that exist are, because that doesn't really disprove my point.
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« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2012, 03:36 pm »

Is it mandatory that a college's sports go through the NCAA, or is that voluntary? If the school chose to abide by the rules of the NCAA, and sanctions and fines can be imposed by them, why is it not alright that they do that when one of the participating schools fucks up?

Did they, by their own rules, need a precedent to do what they did? Or they just happened to have not done that before?
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« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2012, 03:40 pm »

Did they, by their own rules, need a precedent to do what they did? Or they just happened to have not done that before?

This is a matter of some debate amongst sports pundits, but in this case we will never find out.  Penn State will not be appealing the sanctions because there is no way for them to do so without appearing to be arguing in favor of child rape.

Regardless, the question HG raised wasn't "does the NCAA have the authority to do this?" but "is it fair?"
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HyperGlavin
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« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2012, 03:42 pm »

I'm not sure you understand what evidence, testimony and records that exist are, because that doesn't really disprove my point.

Well, you seem to have no trouble finding evidence, testimony and records. Are you implying that the NCAA know less about the case than you do? Because that is pretty laughable.
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« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2012, 03:49 pm »

Regardless, the question HG raised wasn't "does the NCAA have the authority to do this?" but "is it fair?"

Actually, I believe the original source of this tangent was your complaint that the sanctions were not fair. That is not my question at all.
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« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2012, 03:51 pm »

Are sanctions fair when imposed by a regulatory body acting outside it's usually (and possibly even legal) position, levying punishments determined prior to full investigation and complete due process for the accused?
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« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2012, 04:05 pm »

Prior to an investigation? You know the investigation began last November, right? It says so in your link.

As for acting outside of their usual position - is it normally expected of a sporting body to require regulations that make it explicit that colleges should not cover up child abuse? That's the real precedent here, and the NCAA have had to re-assess their regulations in order to deal with that. That's the real reason why there was no due-process: the lack of a framework for this particular case could have been exploited in order to further cover up child abuse.

So, yeah, the sanctions are fair.
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« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2012, 04:24 pm »

Prior to an investigation? You know the investigation began last November, right? It says so in your link.

The investigation into the child abuse by Sandusky began in November.  The investigation into the university response began then as well, but is also complicated as it's being conducted from a variety of angles.  An internal investigation (the Freeh Report) into the role of Penn State was released within the past couple weeks and seems to be the NCAA's primary source in this case. However, it doesn't contain testimony or evidence from the two accused officials that are awaiting criminal trial or any of the actual relevant witnesses, due to a request by the state Attorney General. 
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« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2012, 04:26 pm »

What would make you feel better, JRB? If there was a precedent? If they waited longer? Do you think those will elicit a different outcome? Would you shrug your shoulders then and say "yeah that's fine?"

No, you would find a different reason they shouldn't do it. Your dog in this fight isn't due process or justice or fairness, it's your team. You will always find a reason that your team is being picked on, or singled out, and anyone in a position to punish their misconduct is unjust and doesn't have all the facts.

You're operating in a mode where everything you take in is categorized in a way that will help defuse, deride and deflect any and all criticisms away from the thing you are blindly defending.

If the NCAA were sanctioning some baseball program at some other college, even if it WAS patently unjust, you wouldn't give half a fucking shit. Stop and think why you feel the need to decry every punishment doled out to this institution-- because the root of your defense isn't so noble as justice at large.
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« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2012, 04:40 pm »

I have no real evidence for this, so you can take my word for it or not.  I did say the same things when USC got hit over the Reggie Bush scandal and when Ohio State got hit over Jim Tressell and Terrelle Pryor.  I've always thought it's idiotic for the NCAA to levy punishments that only affect the program only after the guilty parties are long gone.  The kids at Ohio State are currently suffering through two years of bowl ban while the douchebags that brought the penalties down on them are laughing all the way to the bank with their NFL signing bonuses. 

I hate child abuse as much as the next guy, and I don't want to give the impression at all that I consider the miscellaneous competitive advantage issues mentioned above on the same level of seriousness as child molestation.  But I still don't see what this sanction does to help prevent child molestation that the coming criminal and civil cases won't.  If "I might go to jail because I cover up for a child molestor" isn't a big enough deterrent to covering up child molestation, I don't understand why "my employer's football team will lose a ton of football players" would be.  Instead, you're just catching a ton of innocent parties with sanctions that don't really accomplish anything but making the NCAA look important.
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« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2012, 05:04 pm »

Well the fines certainly serve a purpose. As far as the suspension of games, well, if their established method of dealing with lesser infractions is X Years Ban, then it stands to reason that their method of dealing with child rape cover-up is going to be more than that previous ban. If that seems bureaucratic and pointless, well, welcome to the world. When you're overseen by multiple unconnected organizations capable of punishing you(in this case, the NCAA and the judicial system) you're open to multiple punishments.

The time to pick that fight, however, is not right now.

If that's a serious issue you want to discuss, and a change you really want to see, now is not the time to make your case. Even if you're right in general about the NCAA's practices(and I have no idea, I don't give a shit about sports, especially college sports), you're weakening that argument by sticking so fervently to it amidst this particular series of events.
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« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2012, 12:20 am »

The kids at Ohio State are currently suffering through two years of bowl ban

Realtalk, why is college football considered so important in the US?
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« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2012, 12:23 am »

It's an important part of our bread and circuses.
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« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2012, 01:02 am »

Maybe it's because I never went to a big real college or whatever but I've never understood the fanaticism people have for college sports.  I have a plain blue UCLA hoodie that I bought because Karen went to UCLA and it looked good and comfortable on me.  People will literally approach me when I'm sitting at a table in a restaurant and be all "I like your sweatshirt!" or "Go Bruins!" but more commonly they just say "boo UCLA!" or "UCLA sucks, go USC" (USC is their rival and their fans are very plentiful near us) or whatever, even outside of football season.  I just kinda sit there awkwardly until they go away.

College sports seem to exist in some weird alternate dimension, like the wizarding world in Harry Potter, and I'm just some muggle who doesn't understand what's happening when the veil is pierced and I can see the other side.  I suspect this whole undying love of Joe "Did Everything He Could" Paterno and the Penn State culture is just as baffling to me as it is to anyone who doesn't live in the US.

I mean if I had to guess, it has to do with history and tradition and blah blah blah but it all just seems like bizarroworld to me.
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« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2012, 01:35 am »

What freaks me out is that I think I almost completely understand where they're coming from. To me, it's just a more socially acceptable and community-wide case of extreme fanboyism.

I mean, I take something that I absolutely love and have loved for years(the music of Tom Waits, the original Fallout games, etc.) and imagine myself surrounded by like-minded people. Then I imagine jobs at stake because of the things I love, and careers and futures and communities all piled high on what I think are unshakable foundations of objective awesomeness. Every single person knows they're going to go to bed and wake up in a world where, hey, at least those things are there are reliable and pure and good. My world would be fucking shattered if things that I hold in the highest regard, through nostalgia or tradition or whatever, were false in such a drastic way. And we all have things like that.

The disconnect comes when I imagine what I'd do if Tom Waits, or the original Fallout game creators(or something), covered up child rape. Hell, I would probably still play those games or listen to that music. I'm a weak man in that respect. But I wouldn't argue if Waits got his Grammys taken away, or if the people who made Fallout weren't allowed to make games for a few years. And if the record companies or game companies allowed that to happen on their watch, then I wouldn't argue if sanctions were brought on them.

Sorry to torture another analogy.

But yeah, I understand the appeal of a shared nerdy interest(and college sport most certainly is just that). Just not the sickening defense of it in light of something so incredibly fucked up.

As far as college sports are concerned, no I don't understand the appeal-- but then I don't understand the appeal of a lot of things that have massive followings. The thing is, when you are obsessed over an interest, it's almost impossible to explain to someone outside of your group why the thing you love is so good. Not that you don't have reasons, but to that outsider, all the most well-thought-out reasons in the world won't matter if they just don't "get" it. I feel like that's why I can't understand the obsession with sports, and I feel like that's why I could never convince some people why the things I love are awesome.
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« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2012, 06:26 am »

The disconnect comes when I imagine what I'd do if Tom Waits, or the original Fallout game creators(or something), covered up child rape. Hell, I would probably still play those games or listen to that music. I'm a weak man in that respect. But I wouldn't argue if Waits got his Grammys taken away, or if the people who made Fallout weren't allowed to make games for a few years. And if the record companies or game companies allowed that to happen on their watch, then I wouldn't argue if sanctions were brought on them.

Sorry to torture another analogy.

And all I'm trying to say is that the punishments going down here are on the level of banning anyone from ever listening to Tom Waits again.  It doesn't really seem to be a punishment that fits the crime, given the disconnect between the guilty party and the people who will do the paying.

You can say that the sanctions are targeting "the football program" and I understand that point.  But the nature of college athletics means that every 4 years the team has 100% rolled over.  Besides that, every other athletic team at the university depends on the football team for revenue, given that people aren't lining up in droves to pay to watch men's gymnastics.  Besides that, the university employs tens of thousands of people and has nearly 100,000 students getting their education.  Fines of millions of dollars will affect them too, through cut budgets, layoffs and probably through hikes to tuition that will be necessary to cover the loss.  So you're also affecting even further generations of people.  The students starting at Penn State this year were 4 years old when the crimes took place.

The heinous nature of the crimes at hand raises the cry for justice, justifiably so.  And any time you deal with this kind of situation there's going to be collateral damage, that's just reality.  But you would like to think in our modern view of justice, that the people making up the punishments would at least try to limit the damage to the guilty parties and not just take the scorched earth approach seen here. 

I want to see justice done too.  Sandusky's already in jail.  Paterno is dead.  Two other administrators are awaiting trial for their role in covering up the abuse.  Those guys are going to see justice done.  But I don't want to see justice that involves bombing away my whole village just to get at those few terrorists hiding nearby.
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« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2012, 10:48 am »

And all I'm trying to say is that the punishments going down here are on the level of banning anyone from ever listening to Tom Waits again.

No, it's like banning it for 5 years. And given what's happened that seems reasonable. If that means I need to listen to the Eels in the meantime, that's something I understand has to be done(though they are also awesome.)

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I don't want to see justice that involves bombing away my whole village just to get at those few terrorists hiding nearby.

No one is stopping anyone from moving villages, and if part of that punishment is that less people want to occupy that village, well, I'm pretty sure that's the idea of the punishment.

The obsessive, cult-like nature of that community is what kept those people in place, far above scrutiny to begin with. It's what kept on giving them the benefit of the doubt far beyond an appropriate level and it's what drives the frenzied arguments from Penn State fans even now. Putting the brakes on that crazy train for a few years is a completely understandable consequence for anyone who isn't part of that hive-minded community already.

When CEOs fuck up, companies suffer. When priests fuck up, the congregation suffers.

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