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Author Topic: Let's talk about Joe Paterno.  (Read 24849 times)
88FingersLouie
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2012, 10:18 pm »

was a man of upstanding family value in the community

lol
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 10:25 pm »

Look, this isn't Joe Paterno is a perfect Jesus who never made a mistake and fuck you for disagreeing with me.  There's no question in my mind that he totally screwed the pooch on this one.  But from my perspective, I choose to believe (or at least am waiting til there's actual proof) that there wasn't a cover up involved, at least by Paterno.  If he wanted to cover it up because he didn't care about the kid, he would have never passed it on to his bosses in the first place.  

Again, the benefit of the doubt that I'm willing to give is that he was presented with a situation that he didn't know how to handle, passed the information on to his bosses in good faith that they would investigate, and when the investigation came up empty, let it pass on as a mistake.  It's easy for us to say that he should've done something more, but it's not clear to me what he would've done.  The guy who witnessed the crime was apparently convinced enough by the investigation that he didn't pursue it further himself (maybe he doubted what he thought he saw) so what is the guy who was told second hand about it supposed to do?  Launch his own investigation based on hearsay, and completely ruin the life of a former colleague?  


His record wouldn't excuse turning a blind eye to actual pedophilia and I'm not suggesting it should.  What I am suggesting is that you guys seem to be talking about this with a very limited set of facts presented in the media.  If you really take the time to follow the story, as I have since it's been very close to home for me, there's a lot more to it than a guy who knew about a pedophile and didn't care.  What I'm saying is that given the complications in the story, there's room where even people trying to do the right thing could have missed the criminal.  Given the long positive record of Paterno, I'm at least willing to give him enough benefit of the doubt that maybe he meant well, despite the end result.  In that regard, rather than saying what an asshole he is, I'm asking how someone who meant to do the right thing could've missed the picture enough to fuck it up, and how we can all learn from it.  

Because frankly, and maybe it's just because I've followed it a little more closely and have a better understanding of what happened, I don't think that "everyone" would have known the right thing to do.  Like I said, be fair with this.  

Ask yourself if someone came to you right now and told you that they saw your dad in the shower with a little kid acting inappropriately, what would you do?  Would you put him in contact with authorities who could investigate?  What if the investigation found nothing?  Would you investigate your own father on your own?  Would you give your father's name to the media knowing full well that even the accusation means the end of his life as he knows it?  Or would you keep quiet, keeping it in the back of your mind, always being a little wary if you see your dad around kids?
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 10:29 pm »

For like the fifth time, I think, you dont report crimes to "authorities" you report them to the police. If someone comes to you with a report of a crime, you get them to contact the police or do it yourself. You dont have to worry about giving his name to the media, passing it up the authority chain, what your bosses will do... because you are not going to do any of that (or you dont have too, its up to you), what you have to do is call the police.

Are you familiar with the police? Is this something they dont have where you grew up?
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Mr Gale
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 10:32 pm »

Like when I was teaching. If a student came to me, with any serious allegation about a classmate or a fellow teacher... we had a procedure, it involved reporting the matter to my superior, taking notes, contact details... but all that was secondary to the first stage, where you CALLED THE POLICE.
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2012, 10:32 pm »

Did absolutely nothing more than what was legally required when a man was raping defenseless little children. Simply passed the buck and never alerted authorities, allowing it to continue for nearly ten years, ruining an undetermined number of children's senses of trust and security and destroying lives.

When I say that you guys clearly are operating on a limited set of facts, this is the kind of thing that I'm trying to talk about.  The "bosses" were the head of the athletic department (i.e. the campus organization in charge of operations where the incident occurred) and the head of the police department of the campus.  An actual police force that has actual officers that will arrest you if you're committing a crime on campus.  Those "bosses" did pass the incident on to the president of the university, who is the chief officer there.  Those individuals conducted an investigation and determined that there wasn't action that could be taken, the details of which will come out in subsequent trials.

Based on that information, which are the facts known in the case thus far, what further authorities, in your opinion, should have been involved by the second-hand witness after the investigation came up empty?
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 10:33 pm »

...we had a procedure, it involved reporting the matter to my superior, taking notes, contact details... but all that was secondary to the first stage, where you CALLED THE POLICE.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 10:33 pm »

Again, I reiterate in response to gale, that if you had bothered to read more than one news article about this, one of the bosses contacted was in charge of the university police.
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 10:35 pm »

Actual police. Who you contact, and make a police report. A report. With a call. To the police. In which case he would have done everything you could possibly expect and not have been in any trouble.
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HyperGlavin
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 10:39 pm »

JRB, since you have been following this more closely than most, could you throw a few decent links my way? If I'm to weigh up the facts, I'd like to know where to start.
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 10:42 pm »

To use the words of the witness himself:

Quote
When asked why he didn't go to police, he referenced Schultz's position as a vice president at the university who had overseen the campus police

"I thought I was talking to the head of the police, to be frank with you," he said. "In my mind it was like speaking to a (district attorney). It was someone who police reported to and would know what to do with it."

So what we've boiled it down to here is that Joe Paterno, lucifer of the sporting world, is completely satanic because he referred the witness to the Head of the Police Department.  The witness, then believing that speaking to the Head of the Police Department in person was equivalent to "filing a police report", left it to them to complete the investigation.  Then they should have called the Head of the Super Duper Police Department that takes over when the Police Department doesn't get it right, and made sure that things got Super taken care of.
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 10:46 pm »

Quote
When asked why he didn't go to police, he referenced Schultz's position as a vice president at the university who had overseen the campus police

campus policecampus policecampus police

The Super Duper Police Department would in this case, be an actual police department
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 10:50 pm »

Someone in my family had her own father arrested and incarcerated after inappropriately touching her daughter, this despite the fact that they had a strong relationship and he was letting her live in his house, and doing so meant she had to move into her brother's den. That is the normal response. So, next question.
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 10:50 pm »

The campus police at Penn State are an actual police department, at least compared to the campus police at other universities.  While I'm sure that for bigger investigations they bring in the police in the adjacent town who have a larger force, they are still a force on their own.  It's not unreasonable to assume that calling them would get the right people to investigate involved.

Let's put it this way, if you call 911 from a campus dorm, campus police can respond to that call.  They might NOT in all situations, but they're real enough to be involved in the actual police process and not just pass out citations for people carrying beer to sporting events.
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 10:52 pm »

JRB, since you have been following this more closely than most, could you throw a few decent links my way? If I'm to weigh up the facts, I'd like to know where to start.

I second this, I have been browsing some articles but it is hard to sort through all the sketchy ones.
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 11:14 pm »

This is a rough summary.  It's very easy to find articles covering the "overview" narrative largely presented by the media that paints things in a pretty grim light.

The whole grand jury presentment against Sandusky (long read)

Two PSU officials are charged with perjury and failure to report a crime.  Paterno isn't one of them because the Grand Jury felt that he didn't know enough to have been expected to report it.

To be taken with a grain of salt as it's from the defense side, but supposedly the victim says the whole PSU situation isn't all as it seems

McQueary Testimony is kind of complicated and there are a lot of facts and contradictions not contained in the Grand Jury report.  This is a lot of speculation because he hasn't been cross-examined yet at any point.

Information from the Preliminary hearing of the PSU administrators

A dude who's even more biased than me at least provides an alternate take.



Look, I'm overreacting on this, there's no doubt.  There's a lot of guilt here to be placed at the hands of PSU, it's administrators, McQueary (the witness) and Paterno.  But regardless, I don't believe Paterno is a "pile of human dogshit." 

The fact is, I'm probably presenting a slanted view of the story too, mainly as a result of being the only person on the defense side of the table on this forum, trying to at least gain enough ground on the torrent to create a fair discussion, and because I have a biased view.  There's a lot of doubt about what's said by the defense, for sure.  But at the end of the day, none of the defense (Sandusky nor the PSU officials accused of a cover-up and perjury) have had their day to speak out and actually cross-examine the witnesses.  At this stage of the legal process, all we have is a set of facts presented from the plaintiff's side of the table, designed to make all the defense look as guilty as possible, so that charges can be brought to trial.  One other thing to remember is that there are like 10 victims now, but odds are that at least Paterno (the PSU Police guy is questionable) didn't know about any of the other alleged incidents, most of which occurred after this one.  In terms of what PSU did or didn't do, and what Paterno did or didn't do, you have to divorce it of the complete picture which is pretty bleak about Sandusky.

If at the end of the day, they're able to show that Paterno could reasonably have been expected to know that this dude was a serial child molester using his position at Penn State to bring in additional children and groom them for abuse, then I will gladly eat crow and crucify him with the rest of you.  But I've seen and heard enough about Paterno's character, having been a Penn Stater, that I'm willing to believe that he was a good dude who didn't realize the seriousness of the situation and I'm willing to give it a little time to play out before I leap to judgment.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 11:43 pm »

Up yours JRB.
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 01:17 am »

JRB what the fuck
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 01:22 am »

What does the devil even need an advocate for? He's got JRB.
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HyperGlavin
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 01:48 am »

But at the end of the day, none of the defense (Sandusky nor the PSU officials accused of a cover-up and perjury) have had their day to speak out and actually cross-examine the witnesses.  At this stage of the legal process, all we have is a set of facts presented from the plaintiff's side of the table, designed to make all the defense look as guilty as possible, so that charges can be brought to trial.  One other thing to remember is that there are like 10 victims now, but odds are that at least Paterno (the PSU Police guy is questionable) didn't know about any of the other alleged incidents, most of which occurred after this one.  In terms of what PSU did or didn't do, and what Paterno did or didn't do, you have to divorce it of the complete picture which is pretty bleak about Sandusky.

Okay I think this is the heart of the problem right here. The facts that we're working from in the first case are years old, the witness needs to be cross-examined and all, but nothing appears to be new or unheard of by the people involved in that one case. Why is it only just now that the case is important enough to warrant serious legal activity, when this process could've gone through all those years ago, before there were ten other victims? You tell us that it's unlikely that the PSU employees involved would've known about them, so at least one of them must've gone directly to the police, right?

The reason Paterno is being demonised is not that he covered up all of those abuses, or even that he was aware of all but one. It was that one he let slip that allowed the other ten to occur. The comparison to the Pope may be extreme, but his decision to keep his knowledge of the incident within the PSU is very similar to the Catholic church's policy to keep similar investigations within the church. It's something that should not be left to an insular group because the potential damage affects more than just the people within that group. Such a stance is incredibly irresponsible for someone who is supposed to be supportive of his community and can be taken as a huge breach of trust.
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2012, 03:00 am »

If at the end of the day, they're able to show that Paterno could reasonably have been expected to know that this dude was a serial child molester using his position at Penn State to bring in additional children and groom them for abuse, then I will gladly eat crow and crucify him with the rest of you.  But I've seen and heard enough about Paterno's character, having been a Penn Stater, that I'm willing to believe that he was a good dude who didn't realize the seriousness of the situation and I'm willing to give it a little time to play out before I leap to judgment.

He didn't realize a grown man raping a child was a serious situation? That's the sort of thing I'd go straight to the real police about, regardless of whether I thought they'd do it again. You don't get a fucking mulligan when it comes to that.
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